The Passion of the Iraqis
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Show of hands: who else thinks this prisoner "abuse scandal" is all political?
I'm no fan of the current Administration nor the war (and especially the reasons they gave us for being there), but while we're only essentially hazing 'em like fratboys, they're beheading us (naked pictures just don't compare to that).
(Oh, and for the ones hosed with the flashlights, if getting one of those insurgents to talk about an upcoming car bomb or ambush saves some of our fighting men and women, I'll shove the fscker up there my **** self!)
I'm no fan of the current Administration nor the war (and especially the reasons they gave us for being there), but while we're only essentially hazing 'em like fratboys, they're beheading us (naked pictures just don't compare to that).
(Oh, and for the ones hosed with the flashlights, if getting one of those insurgents to talk about an upcoming car bomb or ambush saves some of our fighting men and women, I'll shove the fscker up there my **** self!)
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Amen, brother.
Seems to me if we demand that other countries abide by the Geneva Convention, we'd better follow the rules, too. Remember how outraged Rumsfeld got when he saw the Iraqi army parading our POWs in front of a TV camera at the beginning of the war? He claimed it violated the convention against prisoner humiliation...
America claims to be a moral leader. It doesn't matter what other nations (or in the case of Nick Berg, other nonstate-sanctioned criminals) do to us, we have to lead by example.
Back in WWII, German fathers used to tell their young men going off to war that if they ran into any Americans, surrender to them, because the Americans would treate them well in POW camps and they would survive the war that way. I wonder if any Arab fathers would give their sons the same advice now?
Just another viewpoint...
D
America claims to be a moral leader. It doesn't matter what other nations (or in the case of Nick Berg, other nonstate-sanctioned criminals) do to us, we have to lead by example.
Back in WWII, German fathers used to tell their young men going off to war that if they ran into any Americans, surrender to them, because the Americans would treate them well in POW camps and they would survive the war that way. I wonder if any Arab fathers would give their sons the same advice now?
Just another viewpoint...
D
Well, they haven't been. So now, all bets are off. Besides, doesn't the Geneva Convention only apply to those civilized countries who abide by it? (I didn't get the impression we got a lot of suicide-bomber deaths in WWII)Devon said:
Do we really, or is just part of the Disinformation Package (it's a $77B option that requires the "Sport Package", doncha know
) used to sell us on Iraq, The Sequel??!
Ya gotta be kidding me, right? We're only humiliating them. They don't know how good they've got it. Perhaps we should just shoot everybody we capture from now on ("He drew on me, Sir!")
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I've heard much the same. My grandfather came to America just prior to WWII, and owned a tool & die shop in Detroit that made parts for the Army. His younger brother ended up in the German army. So, I've heard a few stories. Also, had a coworker who was in the German navy and ended up in a British prison camp in Egypt...he told me lots of stories of abuse at their hands, and this is a man that I know and trust dearly.Devon said:
As a professed conservative, I'm a bit torn on this issue. I'm all for doing whatever is needed to spare troops lives, and gather information. And believe me, I'd be first in line to do some of the bum-shovin' to those cowards who think it's right to lop off heads behind a mask. However, if it turns out that some folks were just doing this to get their rocks off, then I don't believe that there's any place for people like that in the U.S. military...and FYI, I did five years in the Air Force myself.
This does all pale by comparison, as Kenny pointed out, to the crap that's happened to some of our folks. And I do find alot of it very disingenuous. If these folks are so concerned, why don't they bitch about all the crap that goes on in our prisons every day? We're all a little too worried about what the French & Russians think of us...two countries that have never done much of anything for us.
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Congratulations Devon for jumping in..touchy issue
-When a civilized country behaves like an uncivilized mob,...who has won?
-By law the implemenatation of the Geneva convention must be approved at the highest levels(Pentagon)Todays news show that military lawyers were bypassed for civilian lawyers on that decision.
-America and Israel are the top 2 terrorist countries in the world
-Saudi Arabia has long supported terrorism to keep the royal family in power
-We created Sadam and Osama
-Sadam did try to kill Bush sr,but in retaliation for Bush trying to kill his sons
-Virtually all of my liberal/conservative/Dem/Rep friends are now outraged by all that is coming into public view.History will judge us poorly and we and our children will pay a high price for actions poorly conceived
-When a civilized country behaves like an uncivilized mob,...who has won?
-By law the implemenatation of the Geneva convention must be approved at the highest levels(Pentagon)Todays news show that military lawyers were bypassed for civilian lawyers on that decision.
-America and Israel are the top 2 terrorist countries in the world
-Saudi Arabia has long supported terrorism to keep the royal family in power
-We created Sadam and Osama
-Sadam did try to kill Bush sr,but in retaliation for Bush trying to kill his sons
-Virtually all of my liberal/conservative/Dem/Rep friends are now outraged by all that is coming into public view.History will judge us poorly and we and our children will pay a high price for actions poorly conceived
Although I hate this moronic war and the neocon bacteria that succeeded in sucking Dim Son Bush into it, this whole " outrage " business over prisoner abuse looks to me like a load of steamy shyte :roll: . Do you have any idea what ordinarily goes on in Arab/Turkish prisons ? Where detainees get active electric wires attached to their genitals, men are raped by guards, tied down into letter O, suspended and then repeatedly beaten on the soles of their feet with rubber batons with lead wires in their core. You don't wanna begin to imagine what that feels like. And on, and on, and on. It makes what current Iraqi prisoners went thru seem like attending a birthday bash over at Richard Simmons' in comparison.
On another note, how many people with functioning brain cells buy Rumsfeld's I-dunno-nuthin'-bout-nuthin' explanation. How can a 19 year old kid from some backwater know how to break a muslim man ? Not to mention that oftentimes they have to get a permission from their superiors for so much as taking a piss. Never mind handling the prisoners here. As a certain French counter-intelligence officer once asked a stunned Mossad agent upon interception-Just how stupid do you think we are ?
On another note, how many people with functioning brain cells buy Rumsfeld's I-dunno-nuthin'-bout-nuthin' explanation. How can a 19 year old kid from some backwater know how to break a muslim man ? Not to mention that oftentimes they have to get a permission from their superiors for so much as taking a piss. Never mind handling the prisoners here. As a certain French counter-intelligence officer once asked a stunned Mossad agent upon interception-Just how stupid do you think we are ?
A few things:
1. The Red Cross reports that anywhere from 70-90% of the Iraqis imprisoned by US forces were rounded up in group arrests in a suspect's home. Troops just arrested everyone in the house. A great many people in those prisons have done nothing wrong whatsover, yet everyone here in the US assumes they're guilty of terrorism, even though they have not had so much as an arraignment, much less a trial. Do they deserve a lightstick up the ass just for being Iraqi?
2. It's more than just humiliation. There have been deaths due to beatings. Some of the photos show corpses in plastic bags. Besides that, we Westerners don't understand the power of what was done to those men. In their culture, they would rather die than be sexually abused. It's that horrific to them.
3. The US is a Geneva Convention signatory. Terrorists are not. Does anyone expect terrorists to abide by the conventions? No. Should the US continue to behave like a civilized nation and uphold internationally recognized codes of warfare in the face of atrocities committed by terrorists on its citizens? Of course.
4. Beyond the ethical questions raised by the abuse, it was an astoundingly, mindbogglingly, jaw-droppingly stupid thing to do, as if the Arab street needed yet another reason to hate and distrust America. The stupidity alone is worthy of outrage.
D
1. The Red Cross reports that anywhere from 70-90% of the Iraqis imprisoned by US forces were rounded up in group arrests in a suspect's home. Troops just arrested everyone in the house. A great many people in those prisons have done nothing wrong whatsover, yet everyone here in the US assumes they're guilty of terrorism, even though they have not had so much as an arraignment, much less a trial. Do they deserve a lightstick up the ass just for being Iraqi?
2. It's more than just humiliation. There have been deaths due to beatings. Some of the photos show corpses in plastic bags. Besides that, we Westerners don't understand the power of what was done to those men. In their culture, they would rather die than be sexually abused. It's that horrific to them.
3. The US is a Geneva Convention signatory. Terrorists are not. Does anyone expect terrorists to abide by the conventions? No. Should the US continue to behave like a civilized nation and uphold internationally recognized codes of warfare in the face of atrocities committed by terrorists on its citizens? Of course.
4. Beyond the ethical questions raised by the abuse, it was an astoundingly, mindbogglingly, jaw-droppingly stupid thing to do, as if the Arab street needed yet another reason to hate and distrust America. The stupidity alone is worthy of outrage.
D
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Harryh.verysimple,very true,live by an ideal and hold yourself to it..regardless of others!
Disrupting sovereign nations,funding an army to fight leaders,killing heads of state,,going into other countries to capture drug lords(which our Supreme court had to step in and free the man).is also terrorism!We want people to be free,but our inner city infant mortality rate is no better than 3rd world countries.Are women free in this country(think about that).Yes!I have been in our prisons and brought GI Bill benefits to inmates(25% of Pa inmates are Vietnam vets) and they got BA,MA and Ph.D's in jail and shut it down the minute that Gov was gone.Lastly,most political scientist will tell you that democracy requires an educated populace!and typically it is not the best form of government.
The Golden Rule is the only answer!!
Disrupting sovereign nations,funding an army to fight leaders,killing heads of state,,going into other countries to capture drug lords(which our Supreme court had to step in and free the man).is also terrorism!We want people to be free,but our inner city infant mortality rate is no better than 3rd world countries.Are women free in this country(think about that).Yes!I have been in our prisons and brought GI Bill benefits to inmates(25% of Pa inmates are Vietnam vets) and they got BA,MA and Ph.D's in jail and shut it down the minute that Gov was gone.Lastly,most political scientist will tell you that democracy requires an educated populace!and typically it is not the best form of government.
The Golden Rule is the only answer!!
Fine, I would say that in Afganistan and probably (hopefully) places we don't even know about our government is delivering this message and these "others" that you mention are having it done unto them in no uncertain terms.kcrudup said:
But do you really think all of those Iraqi prisoners who were abused were guilty and deserved to be punished ? And, do you think all of those Iraqi civilians we, The United States of America, have killed or maimed were Islamic jihadists? Or were they more like the people whose lives were destroyed on 9/11 or in a suicide bombing in Jerusalem ?
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Just curious: asside from the various political and personal takes on this whole thing, has anyone here actually worked up the nerve to watch the beheading video? I saw it last night (downloaded it off Kazaa). For those that have strong feelings one way or another about the whole Iraq situation (or anybody, really), it's really hard to put into words the feelings brought on by seeing that. I asked myself afterward why I just watched it and I'll admit it was partly out of morbid curiosity, but also because I've often felt that I, like a great deal of the American population, have had my head in the sand when it comes to world events such as this and felt that I needed to see it as a wake-up call. At the very least, I stop and think a bit more now when news reports of attacks and more deaths come on the 5 o'clock news. Regardless of whether or not you believe in this war, a lot of people are giving their lives and deserve to be remembered by more than just their immediate families and friends.
I can stomach anything- I've been shot at, I've seen people killed in real life, I watch anything anyone E-mails me, but I haven't watched that particular video since I downloaded it nearly two weeks ago. It would inflame me too much.MustGoFastR said:
It's too bad the "Blame America First" folks are paying more attention to the smokescreen of these "abuses" than they are to what's going on to our men and women.
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