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With all the violance and natural diseasters in the world, do you get the feeling that the end is near??? I do... 8-[
 

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krzys4 said:
With all the violance and natural diseasters in the world, do you get the feeling that the end is near??? I do... 8-[
Umm, no. :? When in history hasn't it been this way? Certainly with the war going on, it's hitting us now. But there are constantly ongoing conflicts that the big news agencies simply don't even bother reporting on because it doesn't bring them ratings. What is it that draws our attention to a single case like Scott Peterson, when thousands are murdered every year, but we barely hear about those cases. Next time you're listening to the news, remember that it's more about getting your attention than actually conveying facts to us. :roll:
 

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I read 3 newspapers a day,sometimes not until the night,one weekly news mag ,and Fox cable news because I find it ridiculous as a news medium,but extremelly popular!!!I read mostly for spin

FHTI is unfortuately dead on.

With all of our technical advances,we have progressed little in solving differences or addressing that quagmire of Nation Building
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The biggest irony - or logical consequence depending on your perspective - of Operation Brain Fart i.e. Iraqi Freedom is that the Iraqis are currently headed @ full steam towards creating an Islamic Republic a la Iran. Things have gotten so bad in the past 12-plus months that now we resort to what the colonial Brits have been doing all along - playing one ethnic/religious group against another yet against another. As we head for the exit, that is. Bush won't postpone Jan. 30 elections precisely because he wants to shift the burden to the Shias and let them now shovel the bulk of the ****.
And the sunnis can bleed, and whine, and moan, and boycott all they want. The balance of power is no longer in their favor. Then there are our tender, self-less friends - the Kurds. BTW, I thought Mosul was a Kurdish town. So why the **** are our troops these days battling the locals there ? Anyhow, a movement is now under way - and picking up a momentum - to demand and declare an independent Kurdistan while not forgetting to grab the northern oil fields in the process. The mere mention of which makes the Turkish Gov. **** sparks. The Bush crew has been warned on several occasions that should Kurds make good on their threat of secession, Turks will invade the north.
So one can safely observe that the crackpot neocon plan of turning Iraq into a representative republic with secular, western-friendly Gov. with an embassy in Tel-Aviv and up-n-running Mosul-Haifa pipeline is not within reach just yet. Oh, and in case you thought it has already hit the fan, just wait till the Shias officially take over.
 

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Nation building isn't something that can happen in a year or two. It will take many, as it did in Germany, Korea, and Japan after the wars that happened there. To hope that we'll just exit Iraq in the next year or two and expect them to be a friendly self supporting democracy would be the lunacy, and I've never heard anyone in the administration indicate that they expected us to be able to do so. That said, democracy has spread across the globe. I recall hearing (can't find a link) that the number has gone from around 30 to well over 100 in the last sixty years. The number has nearly doubled in the last decade alone. 8)
 

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I think the difficulty with discussions about this part of the world is that positions are fixed No one(outside the region) has succeeded here in recent history.We will not either,but we cannot abandon the area either.This is not post war europe Japan or Korea( most of the mid east are fabricated countries).
Is democracy a plus,most Political Scientists would say no(as a minimum it requires an informed electorate...which tends not to exist in these countries).To split hairs,we are a representative democracy which is also a significant difference.
But I do not even do this at cocktail partes and elected officials do not talk about it either.Yes,support the troops because they are in harms way
 

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FromHereToInfiniti said:
Nation building isn't something that can happen in a year or two.
Certainly, you're not inferring we have a right to preemptively strike a country when no clear sign of imminent danger to American soil exists?

That's against the Constitution!

Unfortunately, that's what we've done and the consequences are and will be severe. We had the world on our side after 911---- that's certainly been squandered. We no more have the right to dictate our form of government to the rest of the world than the man in the moon.

The arrogance of our current leaders is unnerving, to say the least.
 

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Wireboltman said:
FromHereToInfiniti said:
Nation building isn't something that can happen in a year or two.
Certainly, you're not inferring we have a right to preemptively strike a country when no clear sign of imminent danger to American soil exists?
I didn't say any such thing...please don't put words in my mouth.

That's against the Constitution!
Really? Which part?

Unfortunately, that's what we've done and the consequences are and will be severe. We had the world on our side after 911---- that's certainly been squandered. We no more have the right to dictate our form of government to the rest of the world than the man in the moon.
Unfortunately, we went ahead based upon bad intelligence (and you can thank Congress for all those intelligence budget cuts after the Cold War...remember the "peace dividend"?). Maybe we would have gone in eventually anyway, but I think it would have required more justification. Personally, I was bitching about the lack of evidence presented to the public prior to us going in. I'm well aware that you can't always do that though because of the need to protect intel sources.

The arrogance of our current leaders is unnerving, to say the least.
No more so than our previous leaders :roll:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The frequent dusting off of post WW2 Germany and Japan is actually a popular neocon tactic whenever they attempt to draw, however clumsy, a parallel between them and Iraq. And which is also echoed via their loyal agitprop arm better known as FAUX NEWS channel. Unfortunately, or rather fortunately, such parallel is a laughable crock.
Neither Japan nor Germany were states with borders artificially drawn up by their colonial ex-masters and populated by ethnic/religious/tribal groups that routinely have been ripping each other's eyes out since basically time beyond recall. Germany also had parliamentary tradition and free press. As far as Japan - a country whose natural resources were bare rocks and sea water - let's just say that in the span of less than 100 years they made a leap from a medieval dump to an economic superpower. That should be enough of info right there.
In the past 6K years the various peoples that populated Iraq, however, never appeared to have been intrigued by the prospect of having a representative goverment. So Bush & Co. decided to remedy that by delivering " democracy " directly into the living rooms of the Iraqis on the tip of the Tomahawk missile. Frankly, I never understood what exactly is achieved by our continuing to stay in that Gawdawful place. The jihadists come and go as they please, Gov. officials are shot up in broad daylight like they were stray dogs, our supposedly secure facilities are being infiltrated and roads have become so unsafe that the army increasingly conducts resupplies via air. I mean, what's the freaking point ?
 

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FromHereToInfiniti said:
Wireboltman said:
FromHereToInfiniti said:
Nation building isn't something that can happen in a year or two.
Certainly, you're not inferring we have a right to preemptively strike a country when no clear sign of imminent danger to American soil exists?

I didn't say any such thing...please don't put words in my mouth.
I apologize if that's not what you meant. Throwing the "nation building" concept in as you did, I wrongly thought you were justifying our prescence in Iraq. Once again, I apologize.

[quote:25khmpvz]That's against the Constitution!
Really? Which part?
[/quote:25khmpvz]

As far as I know the United States cannot attack anybody unless we're in imminent danger. Why would we attack anybody unless that was the case?

[quote:25khmpvz]
Unfortunately, that's what we've done and the consequences are and will be severe. We had the world on our side after 911---- that's certainly been squandered. We no more have the right to dictate our form of government to the rest of the world than the man in the moon.
Unfortunately, we went ahead based upon bad intelligence (and you can thank Congress for all those intelligence budget cuts after the Cold War...remember the "peace dividend"?). Maybe we would have gone in eventually anyway, but I think it would have required more justification. Personally, I was bitching about the lack of evidence presented to the public prior to us going in. I'm well aware that you can't always do that though because of the need to protect intel sources.[/quote:25khmpvz]

The problem with the bad intelligence argument is that Iraq was being held in check by the UN sanctions. The eyes of the world were upon them. They were basically powerless. To have seen it through further was the only logical thing to do given the devastation that was clearly obvious if we went in there.

[quote:25khmpvz]
The arrogance of our current leaders is unnerving, to say the least.
No more so than our previous leaders :roll:[/quote:25khmpvz]

I've been around for awhile. I've never seen this sort of detachment and arrogance before. Not to this degree.

PS. As you can see, putting all this stuff in the little boxes is not going well for me. I hope you can get the gist of what I'm saying.
 

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particlefx said:
PS. As you can see, putting all this stuff in the little boxes is not going well for me. I hope you can get the gist of what I'm saying.
[quote:3lcio70w]I fixed the quote boxes for ya.
[/quote:3lcio70w]

Thanks, I appreciate it.
I'll get the hang of it at some point.
 
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